Quick question for the masses. I hunt a farm in Shenandoah County (200 acres). The owner believes adamantly that muzzleloading season should begin after the two week rifle season. He believes that the bigger bucks need the opportunity to breed before they are racked and stacked by the muzzleloading crowd. He believes that by killing the nice bucks early (before they get a chance to breed the does) that only the scrub bucks (spikes, misshapen horned bucks etc.) with bad genetics are left to breed the does and the overall deer herd suffers greatly in the long term. He believes rifle season should come in one week earlier then it presently does, and last for two weeks and then black powder can kick in for the duration of the season.

Also, FWIW, he had loads of deer on his property and usually some nice bucks (although is seems the quality goes down every year). However, every bucks picture taken on trail cams etc. for the past few years has died before regular rifle season comes in, killed by muzzleloaders who ring his property during the early muzzleloader season. He recently spoke with the local processing place and they advised him the no less then 20 deer were killed by muzzleloader hunters whose stands in-circle his property. PS. Things aren't helped by the fact that we have found three dead deer on his property that were all killed during the early muzzleloader season and not recovered after they ran on his property after being shot. One of those was a very nice 8 point.

Anyway. Would appreciate opinions on this topic and any possible solutions on how to solve the problem. Those of us on the farm don't shoot any bucks unless they are 8 points or better and given how quickly they die when jumping the fences, we normally average shooting about 1 buck a year.

I think you got to trust the biologists that run the program. Much of the state, gun season runs all the way to January, what about those counties? Also, we do have late muzzleloader in the western counties....so this would really mean doing away with early mzl?

I've heard from biologists that antler genetics come from the doe. Also, smaller bucks breeding is just as much a factor of doe/buck ratios, and I would bet early mzl harvest as a small impact on those numbers. The small bucks breeding this year, are just as likely to be next year's big bucks.

I have shot maybe one buck in recent memory during early mzl. Usually take a couple does. I would be dissappointed if they did away with it.

WV does this exact thing.. ML after the Rifle is out..

In my opinion there are more big bucks in VA .. except for the Archery only counties in WV maybe.. I don't really know why .. but my guess is that more VA hunters pass the smaller bucks and let them grow with the early ML season .. seems like all WV hunters kill anything with a horn at least where I hunt in the rifle season .. I hunted three days and saw one spike buck.. very few good bucks killed that I know of around the area.. Maybe VA has better habitat or better forest management.. but I doubt that ..

I could be wrong but I would guess and say that WV has more deer hunters than VA. Hard to believe I know, considering the pop. difference. Alot of people think that the south has all the hunters. Wrong. PA and MI have the most deer hunters in the country I would guess. I could be wrong this is all guessing. Also, VA has alot more agriculture than does WV. If the deer dont have a acorn crop, what do they eat. I know they browse on anything, but I mean crops that promote good health and horn growth. AM I WRONG HERE RANDY?

I would guess the agriculture is a little better in VA .. but not by much .. the eastern shore probably has the best Ag areas .. Surry, Isle of Wright, and Sussex are loaded up with Beans and Peanuts .. and Huge Bucks.. but the Ag areas along the Ohio River Basin in WV are probably comparable .. and there are some big bucks there as well.. but when you look at places with the same habitat like Bath and Highland.. vs Pocahontas and Greenbriar .. where they all have a large amount of NF land .. VA wins hands down in my opinion on the size of the deer taken .. again this is all just speculation on my part .. but from people I know and pictures in Check stations etc .. VA just seems to have bigger and older class of deer .. I don't know about the number of hunters you could be right on that one..

Just cause a 1.5 year old 4 pt breeds a doe doesn't mean he has bad genes. He could have great genes but is to young to show what potential he has. If we really wanted a lot more big bucks the only way to do that is do away with rifle and muzzleloader in November and have archery only then have a short gun season in December. Va does have potential to grow some really nice bucks and there are some good bucks killed every year all around the state

I think muzzeloader season is just another plot of game and fish to make more money. As accurate as they are now, we might as well have a rifle season starting Oct 1st. I cannot stand muzzeloders.

People also forget the doe carries gene's too. It matters who her daddy was too, most people tend ot over look this fact. It takes 2 to make a good buck. You cannot take a KS buck and breed him with a Fl 80 mature doe and expect him to have a 200 in rack.

Have to agree with you. With the new modern muzzleloaders you are fully capable of shooting a deer out to 200 yards. Distances one never dreamed of when the state originally came up with a primitive weapons season. In fact I'd say now if you asked most who hunt with a muzzleloader and a rifle to make a choice, 90% would chose to forgo rifle season entirely and just hunt with the front stuffer because you get a much earlier start to the season (which coincides with the rut BTW).

I can fix it all. One buck a year and 4 doe's. Early muzzeloder season 1st 2 weeks of Sept, then bow season until 2 weekend of Nov, then rifle for one week, then back to bow season, then muzzeloader for the last 2 weeks of the year.

vote for me for Game commissioner,lol.

JMHO here, but it is clear that the rut has started earlier than say 20 years ago. I think a lot of the more dominant bucks breed successfully in the last two week so of bow season. There are a lot of hunters who don't bowhunt and the range of a successful bowhunt is far less than that of a smokepole or shotgun/rifle. More hunters afield in early ML leads to more deer killed. I think the quality of habitat is a greater contributor to antler production that hunting pressure. Hard to tell the hard working guy who only gets 1 week to hunt in muzzleloader or rifle season he can't shoot a spike if he wants to, but letting buck grow to 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 years is key right behind habitat to quality antlered bucks. Even harder to manage a deer "herd" on a parcel size of 200 acres, especially when the ring of death exists. Personally, I've adopted a shoot the does for the freezer and let bucks walk unless they are taxidermist worthy. If you knew a $400.00 taxidermy bill accompanied every buck you shot, you'd chose your bucks more wisely! Now, start telling me I can't shoot does and you'll have a fight on your hands. Just a different perspective for the mix....

I agree dale. I don't think the rut starts later tho I think it just last longer now in my areas and not near as intense as it use to be. Which is even more surprising to me now cause deer sightings have continually declined for the past 10 yards but that's another discussion. Black powder is no doubt my favorite tho and my custom smokeless will outshoot any rifle I've owned or shot and that's reloading for them.

Go to a 2 buck limit, Earn a Buck after the first buck killed, implement antler point restrictions, shift Muzzleloader/Gun season 2 weeks to the right and get rid of the dogs, VA would become a mega-buck state.