The mountains are dead in Bath, Highland, Augusta, and Alleghany Counties. We have pretty much a zero mast crop this year and if we get a big snow that stays one the ground for a while like in 08' there will be no deer next year. I had both weeks of rifle season off from work one of which was paid Vacation which I am very grateful for. I hunted 5 days in early muzzleloader season. In roughly 16 days of hunting I saw 6 bucks and 16 does. 6 BUCKS AND 16 DOES!!! I walk. I'm not scared of any mountain. I have a good set of lungs and a good pair of boots. I put my time in and I feel that I'm a good buck hunter. I hunted public land in 4 different counties, 10 different mountains and at one time for 4 days I never seen, jumped, spooked, or heard a deer. I only seen one gang of turkeys in all the miles I covered as well which also made me sick to my stomach since spring gobbler season is my passion. I know what our mountains held in the 90's and early 00's.

Something has to be done for our particular area. Bath, Highland, Allghany, and Augusta Counties need help, need change, and we need it now! The state of has to make some bag limit changes, shorten season, and eliminate all doe days on government land PERIOD. We need better habitat, such as more clear cutting by the loggers. Let them CUT!!! We need help. People have to speak up and do something about this now or one day when I have a little boy he's not even going to know what a deer is. Its hurts to see my mountains so dead. Something has to be done.

I killed two nice bucks this year my best bucks to date but my hunting season was awful and its not just me. Its everyone I know everyone I talk to says the same thing. We need a change.

Preaching to the choir here. Those of us who grouse hunt have been harping for years. It's come home to roost for everyone now.

seems the only thing that is striving is coyotes and black bears..

Why has it gotten to be like this??

Well there are ten's of variables.

1) The winter of 08'. We got 2 ft of snow in one night and it stayed bitter cold for 2-3 months and the snow never melted. There was no acorn crop and the deer weren't ready for that kind of winter and 50% of the deer herd with no exaggeration died. Only the strong survived which actually gave us a healthier less in breed herd. But where do we draw the line of a healthy herd vs. one more bad winter and seeing a deer will be a big story like in the 50's.

2) In my county alone every day with out fail some where some place at least one deer is killed in a vehicle accident. That's 365 at the least a year. Plus natural accidents in the woods. Broken legs, necks, and other natural ways Mother Nature is keeping the population check right there alone.

3) Dieseases. The Blue Tongue dieseases went crazy two years ago. I think just around lake Moomaw alone 4-5 dozen deer were found dead. They breath in a tiny like gnat which causes a infection and the deer develop a fever. They go to a water source and when they drink water their throat swells and they basically suffocate from the way I understand it. So if that was just around the lake just imagine every river, creek, and pond that dead deer were laying around.

4) Everyone blames coyotes and bear but they are simply doing their job. If you/we were a coyote/bear we'd kill a deer to to survive.

5) Poor habit and poor habit management. Back in the 70's and 80's when deer populations were out the roof; there was logging going on everywhere. Clear cuts were every where all through out the mountains and when their was a bad winter with low acorn crops the deer had plenty of browse to nibble on and they also make ideal cover for all game. Our mountains need more clear and select cuts scattered out all through out the mountains and deep in the mountains not right beside the roads. LET THE LOGGERS CUT!!!

6) I'm not saying the whole state of Virginia needs to change there hunting season length and bag limits I'm just saying that I know that Bath, Highland, Alleghany, and Augusta counties need help. Season needs shortened and bag limits need reduced and I don't think the buck bag limit needs reduced I think the doe bag limit needs reduced to no does allowed to be killed just for a few years and the population would do a complete turn around. When your talking deer population it's always the doe that controls that not bucks. SHORTEN THE HUNTING SEASON AND DOE BAG LIMITS. Early muzzle loader needs to go back to one week.

7) The Commonwealth of Virginia. I think the fault of number 5 & 6 falls back to the state for poor deer population management and habit management. Let the loggers cut and reduced the season and doe bag limits.

All good points I think. Here is my example that I can think of. A couple of years that I lived in Fairfax and hunted the NF in Shenandoah I rarely heard birds and hardly saw sign. I try to look for scratching, feathers, etc. Now I know that just because they aren't gobbling doesn't mean they aren't there. But, I rarely saw sign in the mountains.

But, there is a guy that turkey hunts in Georgia. He posted a video on youtube where he was hunting in Georgia and man there was birds everywhere in the public ground that he was hunting. Im telling you there was a bird gobbling on every ridge. So, how can there be so many down there on public land and VA public land is suffering. What is so different?

I have hunting NF in Augusta since I was about 11. I have seen a steady decline in the numbers of turkey, deer and grouse. Squirrels are abundant but there has been a tremendous increase in the bear population. I agree that something needs to be done...where I hunt there has also been an increase in poaching.

I always find this conversation to be interesting. As such (as with most "controversial" discussion) I try to take the "devil's advocate" approach in order to explore all facets of the issue. I don't claim to be right or wrong. I realize that most will ridicule what I say. I just try to see what people think about the "other side". So here goes.

We are a breed that desires immediate gratification. If there isn't a deer or turkey on every ridge there is something wrong. Is this the right way to think?

So we aren't in the Midwest where they see 30 deer a day (at least) like on TV. We aren't in Georgia with turkeys on every ridge (...except where I was in the VA NF this past spring. It was a dream!). Is that a bad thing? Why do we have the privilege to hunt? First and foremost, biology. Populations. High populations means we see more. But isn't that, biologically, a bad thing? Maybe it means that DGIF is actually doing their job? Maybe too well?

"Nature" and "natural" are funny words. I have come to realize that their definitions are losing validity. Nature is now what humans make it for our enjoyment:
"Log the forest so we can increase populations of these certain species". What about the species that already live there? What was wrong with the old growth forests that existed when Johnny Smith and his boys came across the Atlantic that were crawling with natural flora and fauna?
"Lets put largemouth bass in the lake. They are fun to catch". Humans LOVE introducing invasives that can completely alter an ecosystem. Another example: What happened to Brook Trout?

Now, with all of that said, in order to keep people interested in hunting there has to be game to hunt. Reworded, there has to be LOTS of game to hunt so we don't get discouraged after watching Lee and Tiffany pass up 140" bucks milling around 20 does. I understand this. Nobody likes freezing their butts off and not even seeing a deer.

I am a little biased. I have hunted public land just about my entire life in Cumberland and Powhatan county. Nothing made my blood boil more than when they would log a section of woods I loved. This mentality has not changed for me. If you do not appreciate the beauty of wide open hardwoods that you can see 300 yards in I implore you to visit the eastern part of the state where there are few areas you can see past 50. I am just now starting to hunt National Forest (as I just moved to Roanoke from Richmond) and think it is some of the most beautiful land I have ever seen. I love big hardwoods. I love seeing trees that 4 people can't hug. It pains me to know that it will eventually be cut.

Here is a link to a blog post by Mark Taylor of the Roanoke Times. Unfortunately, the article that Bill Cochran wrote (that Mark refers to) is broken. I read it when it was first posted and it was fascinating. The blog post gives you the gist. Matt Knox loves to see deer kills down, and it pains him to hear hunters complain about it. TScott may or may not have read it too, as I know he follows the blog.
http://blogs.roanoke.com/wildlife/2013/12/cochrans-take-in-on-deer-kill-rollercoaster/#comments

Just some food for thought boys. I'm not trying to step on toes or say that you guys are wrong. Just playing devil's advocate.

Happy Hunting!
Royce

Well it would be nice to see lots of deer and turkey

Sqoose, not a bad sentiment, but without the American Chestnut there is no way that today's old growth forests could mirror what was here before they were logged. Those massive trees sustained large populations of wildlife and were able to outcompete all other trees for sunlight. The forests we have today are in a transition from oak-hickory to a climax forest of beech and maple. Without logging ,these forests will revert almost entirely to beech, maple, and invasives within a hundred years. It will be pretty, but it won't be what was here before and it won't sustain a lot of wildlife. Like it or not we have already altered the balance of nature and human intervention is required to keep what we have. I guess we could just let it go and see what happens, but I doubt any of us would be happy with the result.

Better forestry management is probably the most effective tool we have, but don't hold your breath for anything to be done about it.

I recently engaged in a similar discussion on a Roanoke Times blog. From that discussion I have taken away the knowledge that I actually know very little about this topic. Too little, in fact, to really take an informed stance like the one I made in my previous post.

Basically I learned more about what Bozo just said. The makeup of our current forest ecosystems would not allow for restoration of what we formerly had. This is something I would like to learn more about.

With that being said, I am still more for preservation than cutting for early succession if there is a way to make it work. We still have a lot of oaks, and I would hate to see them cut.

Keep teaching me!

When the deer were booming in Alleghany Highlands (Bath, Highland, Alleghany, Augusta, Rockbridge, and Craig Counties)in the 70's geuss what else was BOOMING? Logging. Habit diversity, Browse & cover. The bag limits were lower and the hunting seasons where shorter.

So skip forward to present day my friend. Logging deep in National Forest Lands has come to a stop 20 years ago. Now Bag Limits are higher and Hunting season is longer.

I have a good set of Lungs. I have a good set of legs. I don't hunt beside the roads. I hunt deep in the mountains miles from my truck. I live in these mountains. I'm in these mountains Daily. I've seen what we had. I watched it go bad and now I see what's left. We hunt with riding mules and we get deeper than a large majority of anyone that hunts. In the late 80's & early 90's back in the middle of no where deep in the mountains there was deer trails cut around the sides of the mountain ridges like cattle trails in a farmers field.

Now I go to those places of such great hunting adventures and memories with my dad and now a deer trail is non existent. No signs of life. Every once in a while you'll see a song bird fly by. No deer sign, no turkey scratching, hunt for days and never even see, hear, spoke, jump a deer. Not even hear one run away from you around the side of the mountain in a laurel thicket. Never a glimpse of a whitetail running over a ridge.

Now. Y'all sit there and think about that for a little while. I'll be glad to hear the biologists scientific answer.

I have hunting NF in Augusta since I was about 11. I have seen a steady decline in the numbers of turkey, deer and grouse. Squirrels are abundant but there has been a tremendous increase in the bear population. I agree that something needs to be done...where I hunt there has also been an increase in poaching.