Myself and other fall turkey hunters have been talking about this for many years. I think the results would shock folks on our thoughts. Mary Joe from PA has some good thoughts on this. I wish VA would have taken the same approach many years ago.

The primary factor controlling spring turkey populations is management during the fall male-female hunt, which is more heavily regulated at the Wildlife Management Unit level. The 2019-20 fall turkey season regulations are far more detailed than statewide spring gobbler regulations. The key to population control, Ms. Casalena said, is the autumn hen harvest.

I know her suggestion along with NY on shorting the season and number of birds allowed in each management units upset many a fall hunters.

But myself and other serious fall hunters would sacrifice for a shortened season and number of birds taken if the plan was implemented and approved by the State commission. Couple of us were taken back by the commission approving the States PA and NY biologists recommendations for the fall turkey seasons that would and I believe has decreased out of state revenue and some in state revenue.

Her key word to me was “management”. I know most all States biologists make recommendations to the commission but if it effects revenue more often then not, the recommendations fall (no pun indented) on deaf ears.

But breaking down length of season, number of birds taken in given sectors of each state would be a good management tool both in fall and spring.


Earl

I disagree. For one we dont kill hardly any fall birds as it is. 2400 statewide and half of which are hens. Micromanaging will just lead to birds not checked and increased pressure on zone border counties. We do not want to lose the fall traditions which have suffered already. The one change I could be for is instead of either sex require 2 nd and or third bird be a gobbler. Btw I have not fall hunted in years. Imo populations are in no way influenced by hunter harvest. Rather land use and practices combined with weather and predator load.

I don't think the fall puts the pressure on the birds that spring does, but to have an effective MANAGEMENT program you can't disregard either side of the equation. I do think limiting the number of hens taken in the fall is a good idea. 1200 hens is 1200 hens and it adds to the equation. Now if numbers get high again, management plans should change, but for now I agree, numbers down, game allotted should reduce too.
V

BD, good points. Yes by all means lets not have a knee jerk reaction and end fall hunting. The reason I bring this up, once again talk of no fall hunting is being brought up again. I have not heard anything here in VA except the way fall season dates are set up. I believe the breakdown by region, management area etc is good.

The other main point that we talk about is States that do not allow a fall season are seeing a decline in thier population.

Here is Gary Norman’s assessment of the 19/20 fall season.

https://www.dgif.virginia.gov/wildlife/ ... stsummary/

Look at the chart where breakdown of months and weapons used. I would say over half the birds were taken while hunters were hunting other game (opportunistic hunting).

Micromanaging a fall season as you say would be a tough assignment. But with a couple States changing thier spring seasons once again (limits, dates) the spring hunters are upset and then the fall season is brought up. Can't we all just get along.

Yours and Vic's point is spot on and that is proper management. Studies and research is great. But a lot of the biologists do not agree. I guess we all can agree to disagree.


Earl

Lot of opinions on the fall seasons everywhere.

I really think one of the main reasons for the turkey decline is the number of hunters now. Everyone spring gobbler hunts now and I think the decline is showing this

That's probably true, also, the equipment used today makes a big difference. Using a jake or full strutt decoy can work even without calling. I have heard people call on some of the videos and am amazed they get birds. However, if you can get the bird in range of a male decoy, lights out. This is one of the things I think has impacted the turkey numbers from hunter success. I know my jake decoy works most times. Though we don't think killing off mature Toms doesn't impact the numbers too much, but I've done some research and what I found is that Jakes may chase the ladies around but they are shooting blanks when it comes to mating. Their testes aren't mature enough to do the job. So I am trying to manage the birds around here by managing the Toms too.
V

If I was in charge of the turkey hunting world, I would:

1- outlaw the use of decoys
2- make turkey tags a separate item to purchase
3- reduce tags to two (including a single fall either sex tag)

I recently had a suspicion confirmed that taking too many gobblers in the spring can have a detrimental effect on turkey breeding success. Some of the transmitter work with turkeys in NC is lending support to that. So, its not just taking hens that has a negative influence...

Id outlaw TSS and comparable loads. Id eliminate all fall hunting . Id eliminate bowhunting for turkeys. Id outlaw reaping. Sort of level the playing field for the turkey population.

I would support any well thought out structured management plan. No matter what seasons or both are eliminated. What ammo, tools etc. are taken away.

I would eliminate spring hunting. After the transplanting program back in the 50/60's look at the States back then that had only fall hunting and the turkey populations in many States grew. But again habitat back then was conducive for the growth of many animals. Besides in the fall less turkey hunters due to deer, ducks and other hunting then (purely selfish there).

In defense of the state biologists that want to get a plan implemented they usually fight a losing battle with the States game commission.


Earl

Good discussion. I think reducing the numbers allowed in the spring is a must, especially when 4 per hunter, wow. I agree with guns that shoot real far, the whole point to me is getting them close. Most all of my shots are inside 30 yards, many inside of 20. Very exciting that way. I kind of agree, any plan that has a chance is better than no plan at all. Need to do something now or they will end up closing seasons, don't want that. They did that for Canada geese around here, closed for multiple years. Should of managed better in the first place. What's that expression about history, doomed to repeat............
V

Now that we have the P>>s and vinegar out of the way, it is notable that many TV hunting show commentators believe Tennessee had the premier eastern hunting in the country( I would not agree) , and continually said that on various shows for a few years now. OOS hunters to TN were drawn here by a somewhat illusory four bird limit in the spring and virtually unlimited hen tags in the fall in the past .

Instate Hunters in Tenn in last five years became very outspoken that they thought way too many birds being killed spring and fall. And that an unknown disease was really killing a lot of birds in some south central Tn counties. Some counties that were historically premier hunting went to a fraction of former spring harvest on males in a span of five years. And a lot of hens died with essentially an unlimited fall hen tag availability.

Tenn did an extensive study on those drastic population loss counties. And the study is still ongoing. But to its credit the state did react and lowered the spring limits in those special zoned counties, eliminated fall hens , and set spring opening day back about a couple weeks in some cases. Some say it was the hunters and not the state biologists who pushed these changes through.

Then What really got everyones attention was the incredibly large spring harvest this last spring. Over 40,000 birds. Way above any prior records. And the covid based hunting pressure simply overwhelmed the bird base. So state reacted by lowering statewide limit to 3 spring birds , more restrictive hens regs in fall, and setting starting date back by a week in spring.

Truth is the instate hunters led this statewide change, and not the state agencies. The stat agencies claimed they didn't have enough evidence to lower the limit r set back the starting date. Maybe The OOS revenue was driving the agency push back to more conservative changes. The hunters lobbied hard on the Commissioners who eventually voted to the season and bag reductions and other changes.

So if you think the state agencies are always going to lead and do the "right thing" for the game populations ( come up with a great plan and follow it etc) voluntarily I would simply say the revenue side of the equation is often/perhaps/sometimes more important than the goal of protecting base populations. Hunters better pay attention and be heard on what they see on the ground in seasons and not let their base populations become severely damaged for a long recovery period.

Did they ever find some kind of bird flu or something reducing the numbers or do they think it was just too many hunters?

I'd rather be proactive than reactive. 3 birds is still a lot per season. We're at 2 and they may need to change too. Here in MD I think some of the issue is illusory. What I mean by that is MD didn't have much of a population in many areas. NWTF seeded birds in many places but turkeys go where they want and may leave the original range. I have a 55 acre farm that had no birds. Last winter we saw a flock of 20 plus birds there and this year we have been seeing many too. (Had 3 toms ripping it behind me 2 Friday's back.) Good to hear. I try to manage the birds I see and not over harvest but I think I am the exception in many cases. Losing spring gobbler would be very hard on me. Don't even want to think about it.
V

Vic, I do not think that any State would do away with a spring season, no matter how bad the turkey population gets. It is just to commercialized with powerful amounts of money involved.

But heck if you had 3 toms ripping it a couple weeks ago that is all you need for a great and interesting fall hunt. But I too would be lost without a spring season, just something about that Primal gobble and courtship. And one day having a masters degree in turkey hunting to a kindergarten degree for a week.


Earl

This talk is a little like re-arranging deck chairs on the titanic. The existential threat to turkey hunting is falling hunter numbers. We are getting older as a group (I bet nobody in this forum is under 40), and not replacing with new hunters. To attract and retain as much as we can, we should be trying whatever is reasonable to increase turkey hunting opportunities, not decrease. Talk of banning spring (or fall) hunting, certain weapon or ammo types, etc. that we don't personally value does not help that cause.

Biologically sound game laws are obviously important. I think most of the mid-Atlantic states (PA, MD, VA) have them about right. The primary reason turkey populations have been declining in recent years are: 1) continued disappearance of habitat, 2) lack of predator control, and 3) cold wet weather the past few springs. That's what we should focus on. Can't do much about #3, but maybe the first two.